Thoughts on Torchwood
Jul. 10th, 2009 08:37 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
altogetherisiparticularly Children of Earth, Day 4.
Well.
I am annoyed. I might even be angered.
I am also saddened, and disappointed.
So, Ianto died last night.
Now, I don't like spoilers. I hate spoilers. I don't like being spoiled, and I hate hate hate if I spoil someone else by accident. But, even without spoilers I was pretty sue Ianto was going to die. I kept trying to deny it, hope for the best, but to be honest the Torchwood writers are a bit obvious and predictable in this regard. Also, how many times have they tried to kill Ianto now, like 2? 3? They never really knew what to do with his character, and probably didn't predict the huge fandom following he would have when he was created. Plus at the Hub 2 GDL mentioned he was looking for pilots. So yeah, I was really hoping he wouldn't be killed, but it wasn't a shock.
But, it was really annoying. Frankly it pissed me off.
It pissed me off because Ianto's death was entirely pointless.
It was stupid. It didn't make sense. It was a complete betrayal of the character.
And I am particularly angry because the rest of the Children of Earth series so far has been really, really good. The writers have proven they can in fact write, they've used the extended format to their advantage. And now, they just fuck it all up completely pointlessly.
There was absolutely no reason for Ianto to even be in that building. It would have been a better plan, one that made more sense, if Ianto had gone with Rhys - he could have protected Rhys, protected the footage. Ianto knows more about computers than Rhys does. If Rhys had been caught somehow, and out of all of them obviously he is most likely to slip up, as much as I love him, so having Ianto go with him might have actually been a good idea. Day Two showed how the team can be really quite effective when they are apart. And in the event the assassin woman just shot Gwen and Jack was I don't know, trapped agan somehow, wouldn't you prefer Ianto to still be out there. You would. Obviously.
Ianto could not defend Jack, and his being there provided someone else to distract Jack and possibly provide someone Jack would have to defend. Jack's family was already being held hostage. It was not at all sensible to put someone ele he cares about in needless harm when he wasn't also adding anything.
And, quite frankly, he wasn't. He made those phone calls, but he couold have then gone off to meet Rhys or something. He followed jack into the building, and Jack didn't really do anything either to be honest, but at least Jack can't die. Or stay dead anyway. Ianto stood next to Jack, and made a couple of silly comments, and then he died. There was no point to it. The writers could have at least come up with some mcguffin that Ianto had to do something in the room, or was even guarding the door, something, anything, but no. He wasn't doing anything at all, and there was absolutely no reason for Ianto to go into the building, except to die.
I wouldn't be so angry if he'd been given a good death. I'd still be sad of course, but still. When Tosh and owen died, it made sense. They were heroes. They had amazing deaths. I miss them, but they went out brilliantly, poignant and heart breaking, and not entirely ridiculously. It was sad, but it was excellent writing. And that simply wasn't the case with Ianto's death. They've shown Ianto to be caring, intelligent, noble, and his death was so stupid and pointless, and that really pisses me off. They basically reduced Ianto to "Oh, someone else that Jack can lose for no particualr reason, just because we like making Jack suffer." Not the efficient, funny, innovative character we've come to know. He might have been anyone. And there was simply no reason for him to be there. None at all.
Also, as well as not making any sense in the plot, I don't even think that whole end to the episode was very effective dramatically. They'd spent four episodes building up that the 456 can, to some extent, control children, making them speak. A huge part of the dramatic tension of this episode was due to the debate about whether and how to sacrifice thousands upon thousands of children. It was tense and horrible, in some parts cold and callous, in others hopeless, desperate. it was great TV. And then, they showed, well if kinda randomally, how the 456 can use this control to kill Clem. I liked Clem. I wish he hadn't died. But, he did. And it was dramatic. It had been built up to a climax. On the other hand, there was the whole virus thing, which as far as I'm concerned was basically an excuse, a mcguffin designed to help support Jack's previous awful decision. And it was a totally fine mcguffin for that purpose. And I think by using another deadly virus thing maybe they were trying to make it slightly less mcguffin-y and more of a real plot point, but I think they mainly completely undermined themselves. I think it would have been far more effective if the 456 had used the control it had over the kids in the same way it had with Clem. The whole episode was about killing children. The whole series has been about power over children. If the 456 had killed some children, and then continued to demand more, now that would have been dramatic. Maybe even killed one of John Frobisher's, or Jack's grandson, or Ianto's neice or nephew. It would have been devastating, but more subtle, and would have continued racking up the pressure on the politicians, on the decision about whether to surrender and give in or fight nobly and die inevitably.
But, instead the writers decide to go with a virus. Idiots. Pointless, stupid, disappointing.
And so gratuitous.
This is clearly one of the weaknesses of the Doctor Who/Torchwood writers, even though, at least in my opinion, the subtler ones are always the best, the most dramatic, and the most scary, and the most heart breaking. What happened to Donna for instance, was in many ways wose than her dying, emotionally at least, and was a much better ending than her just dying. What happened to Rose, both times, was more subtle, more insiduous, than it first seemed. She got a happy ending - or did she? That is the kind of writing that is very very good. Subtle. The crazy huge stuff can be a little wearying at times, but its the small stuf that can be so breath taking. Blink, Midnight - and in Torchwood, look no futher than Adam; a simpler, smaller concept but executed precisely, can be breath taking, heart wrenching.
But, the gratuitousness. Since Torchwood has begun, since Gwen joined the team, every single member has died, some, not just Jack, more than once. Even Rhys has died and come back to life. At the end of te last series, both Owen and Tosh died, and ok it was splendid, but still, that's two fifths of the team. Susie dying in the first episode was shocking and effective, and Owen and Tosh dying was heart breaking and excellent TV. But still. They have now lost the car, the Hub, all the previous team members, and that cool doctor charaacter that they set up for the purpose. Moreover, the killing of Jack is getting a little out of hand. OK, the situation is serious, and OK a lot of people want Jack dead. And, I liked the whole killings/bomb/explosion/nakedness/concrete storyline, that was really interesting. But come on now. Before Gwen joined the team, none of the rest of them even knew that Jack didn't stay dead. And ok, so the 21st century is when it all changes, but seriously its getting a bit silly. And now, on top of all that, Ianto has died. For no reason. Which I can't help feeling also detracted from Clem's death. Ianto died, pointlessly, and this just highlights how much they indulge for no reason.
I just... Ianto was at Torchwood One. He survived so many other things, Cybermen, Daleks, and blood thirsty screenwriters. And then they take him down by awkwardly putting him in a stupid situation where he doesn't even do anything, he just breathes in the wrong place and the wrong time. That just makes me angry. I don't mind them killing him if they did it well, but frankly they didn't. They did it so stupidly, and it was a betrayal.
I don't know. I might have more to say later - at this point I am yet to read anybody else's opinions, but. Well. I am sad, and annoyed, and angry, and disappointed.
Poor Ianto. He deserved better.
Well.
I am annoyed. I might even be angered.
I am also saddened, and disappointed.
So, Ianto died last night.
Now, I don't like spoilers. I hate spoilers. I don't like being spoiled, and I hate hate hate if I spoil someone else by accident. But, even without spoilers I was pretty sue Ianto was going to die. I kept trying to deny it, hope for the best, but to be honest the Torchwood writers are a bit obvious and predictable in this regard. Also, how many times have they tried to kill Ianto now, like 2? 3? They never really knew what to do with his character, and probably didn't predict the huge fandom following he would have when he was created. Plus at the Hub 2 GDL mentioned he was looking for pilots. So yeah, I was really hoping he wouldn't be killed, but it wasn't a shock.
But, it was really annoying. Frankly it pissed me off.
It pissed me off because Ianto's death was entirely pointless.
It was stupid. It didn't make sense. It was a complete betrayal of the character.
And I am particularly angry because the rest of the Children of Earth series so far has been really, really good. The writers have proven they can in fact write, they've used the extended format to their advantage. And now, they just fuck it all up completely pointlessly.
There was absolutely no reason for Ianto to even be in that building. It would have been a better plan, one that made more sense, if Ianto had gone with Rhys - he could have protected Rhys, protected the footage. Ianto knows more about computers than Rhys does. If Rhys had been caught somehow, and out of all of them obviously he is most likely to slip up, as much as I love him, so having Ianto go with him might have actually been a good idea. Day Two showed how the team can be really quite effective when they are apart. And in the event the assassin woman just shot Gwen and Jack was I don't know, trapped agan somehow, wouldn't you prefer Ianto to still be out there. You would. Obviously.
Ianto could not defend Jack, and his being there provided someone else to distract Jack and possibly provide someone Jack would have to defend. Jack's family was already being held hostage. It was not at all sensible to put someone ele he cares about in needless harm when he wasn't also adding anything.
And, quite frankly, he wasn't. He made those phone calls, but he couold have then gone off to meet Rhys or something. He followed jack into the building, and Jack didn't really do anything either to be honest, but at least Jack can't die. Or stay dead anyway. Ianto stood next to Jack, and made a couple of silly comments, and then he died. There was no point to it. The writers could have at least come up with some mcguffin that Ianto had to do something in the room, or was even guarding the door, something, anything, but no. He wasn't doing anything at all, and there was absolutely no reason for Ianto to go into the building, except to die.
I wouldn't be so angry if he'd been given a good death. I'd still be sad of course, but still. When Tosh and owen died, it made sense. They were heroes. They had amazing deaths. I miss them, but they went out brilliantly, poignant and heart breaking, and not entirely ridiculously. It was sad, but it was excellent writing. And that simply wasn't the case with Ianto's death. They've shown Ianto to be caring, intelligent, noble, and his death was so stupid and pointless, and that really pisses me off. They basically reduced Ianto to "Oh, someone else that Jack can lose for no particualr reason, just because we like making Jack suffer." Not the efficient, funny, innovative character we've come to know. He might have been anyone. And there was simply no reason for him to be there. None at all.
Also, as well as not making any sense in the plot, I don't even think that whole end to the episode was very effective dramatically. They'd spent four episodes building up that the 456 can, to some extent, control children, making them speak. A huge part of the dramatic tension of this episode was due to the debate about whether and how to sacrifice thousands upon thousands of children. It was tense and horrible, in some parts cold and callous, in others hopeless, desperate. it was great TV. And then, they showed, well if kinda randomally, how the 456 can use this control to kill Clem. I liked Clem. I wish he hadn't died. But, he did. And it was dramatic. It had been built up to a climax. On the other hand, there was the whole virus thing, which as far as I'm concerned was basically an excuse, a mcguffin designed to help support Jack's previous awful decision. And it was a totally fine mcguffin for that purpose. And I think by using another deadly virus thing maybe they were trying to make it slightly less mcguffin-y and more of a real plot point, but I think they mainly completely undermined themselves. I think it would have been far more effective if the 456 had used the control it had over the kids in the same way it had with Clem. The whole episode was about killing children. The whole series has been about power over children. If the 456 had killed some children, and then continued to demand more, now that would have been dramatic. Maybe even killed one of John Frobisher's, or Jack's grandson, or Ianto's neice or nephew. It would have been devastating, but more subtle, and would have continued racking up the pressure on the politicians, on the decision about whether to surrender and give in or fight nobly and die inevitably.
But, instead the writers decide to go with a virus. Idiots. Pointless, stupid, disappointing.
And so gratuitous.
This is clearly one of the weaknesses of the Doctor Who/Torchwood writers, even though, at least in my opinion, the subtler ones are always the best, the most dramatic, and the most scary, and the most heart breaking. What happened to Donna for instance, was in many ways wose than her dying, emotionally at least, and was a much better ending than her just dying. What happened to Rose, both times, was more subtle, more insiduous, than it first seemed. She got a happy ending - or did she? That is the kind of writing that is very very good. Subtle. The crazy huge stuff can be a little wearying at times, but its the small stuf that can be so breath taking. Blink, Midnight - and in Torchwood, look no futher than Adam; a simpler, smaller concept but executed precisely, can be breath taking, heart wrenching.
But, the gratuitousness. Since Torchwood has begun, since Gwen joined the team, every single member has died, some, not just Jack, more than once. Even Rhys has died and come back to life. At the end of te last series, both Owen and Tosh died, and ok it was splendid, but still, that's two fifths of the team. Susie dying in the first episode was shocking and effective, and Owen and Tosh dying was heart breaking and excellent TV. But still. They have now lost the car, the Hub, all the previous team members, and that cool doctor charaacter that they set up for the purpose. Moreover, the killing of Jack is getting a little out of hand. OK, the situation is serious, and OK a lot of people want Jack dead. And, I liked the whole killings/bomb/explosion/nakedness/concrete storyline, that was really interesting. But come on now. Before Gwen joined the team, none of the rest of them even knew that Jack didn't stay dead. And ok, so the 21st century is when it all changes, but seriously its getting a bit silly. And now, on top of all that, Ianto has died. For no reason. Which I can't help feeling also detracted from Clem's death. Ianto died, pointlessly, and this just highlights how much they indulge for no reason.
I just... Ianto was at Torchwood One. He survived so many other things, Cybermen, Daleks, and blood thirsty screenwriters. And then they take him down by awkwardly putting him in a stupid situation where he doesn't even do anything, he just breathes in the wrong place and the wrong time. That just makes me angry. I don't mind them killing him if they did it well, but frankly they didn't. They did it so stupidly, and it was a betrayal.
I don't know. I might have more to say later - at this point I am yet to read anybody else's opinions, but. Well. I am sad, and annoyed, and angry, and disappointed.
Poor Ianto. He deserved better.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-02 06:08 pm (UTC)In fact, I'm beginning to ponder whether you might in fact be my future self. XD
I've now reached the point where I'm not sure if they ought to bring him back or not. I never wanted them to bring him back just because of the fandom's outrage, though his death angered me a lot (basically, see your post, because it mirrored my stance exactly).
That said, there is also something about Ianto dying in such a stupid way that almost makes it beautiful. He didn't go out guns blazing, he went out in Jack's arms, and I think that's the way I would have wanted him to go. However, you're perfectly justified in saying that the situation was pointless. If he had a reason for being in that room, it would have been the perfect death, in my eyes (albeit a little too soon, because Ianto's character had so much left to explore in his relationship with Jack. Jack never met Rhiannon, and Ianto never met the Doctor, and to me realising those two things was as heartbreaking as his death in the first place). But because he didn't have a reason, it became the most pointless. Just that little snag that stopped COE continuing with such amazing writing.
I sort of want Torchwood to have a break, let all the fans deal with it and have Jack run off with the Doctor again (I'm fairly sure he will). And then in a few years' time, have Ianto return. I can't decide whether that would be awesome or simply farcical.
Alternatively, give Ianto his own spin-off. Dudes, you KNOW it would be popular. He already has the fanbase, same as Jack had. The Adventures of Torchwood's Teaboy. =D
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-02 07:03 pm (UTC)I think the thing that annoyed me most wasn't so much the characters as the writers. I felt that they had spent the whole rest of the series really proving they were talented writers capable of making really excellent TV, and then Ianto's death felt lazy. Having proved they could write well, why did they not continue to do so here? I identify a little with some of fandom's other outrages, that CoE wasn't the Torchwood of previous series', that RTD systematically destroyed everything he had made, that they had claimed J/I shippers would be pleased with the developments of CoE, but they have never been my principal concerns. I'll put up with a lot for the storytelling, and if Ianto had died well then I would have been sad but also glad and appreciative of the story. It didn't need to be guns blazing, it couldn't have been equally pointless in the sense of an example of pointless death generally - it was this dip in the story telling that I perceived I think that really irritated me. The whole thing felt cheap and like we were cheated.
I don't want Ianto to be resurrected, and while I would have much preferred it if he hadn't died in the first place I don't want any kinda new series to suggest he hadn't died now that he has - that too I think would feel cheap. I agree that the show should be rested for a bit, though with its previous ratings I think it would be unlikely that the BBC wouldn't often to recommission it at some point.
What I do wish would happen (and I know it never will) though is this:
Jack goes off to travel the universe, possibly meeting up with the Doctor occasionally, for a while, and then returns to Earth, but a little before he left, maybe the 90s or the very early 00s. Then, he would take over Torchwood 2 in Scotland, putting together a new team and having similar but different adventures... but with the twist that Jack now constantly faces the temptation to cross his own personal timeline, to give his previous self help and clues and warnings, and he could glimpse stillalive!Ianto and Owen and Tosh and even his previous team before they all died... because you know he'd be watching even if he couldn't allow himself to be directly involved. He'd try to help out where he can, walking a thin line, unsure whether its a good thing to see his friends (and lover) alive again when he has seen them dead. And, in asmuch as he would try to avoid interacting with his previous self, he himself would become the strange man that runs TW2 Jack mentions in the very first ep :) That way, we the audience could be given more time with and insights into the lives and characters of Ianto, Owen, Tosh, and Suzie without actually bringing them back to life, while also further explorings the difficulties posed by Jack's rather unique situation.
OR, spinoff wise, they should make Randy! XD I'd soo watch that.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-02 07:15 pm (UTC)If I ever make it big in the TV world, I'm pulling all my contacts to get you producing that show.
One slight glitch is that in the book-canon, the strange (Scottish) man is called Archie, and also in the series Owen says they've spoken on the phone, and I'm sure he'd have recognised Jack's voice.
So, I propose that Jack and Archie co-run it, because Jack no longer wants to run Torchwood after everything that's happened, but ends up sort of doing anyway.
I don't think you understand how much I want/need this show.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-02 08:23 pm (UTC)Clearly, at some point in the future, we are destined to work together to make truly awesome TV *nods* I can't wait.
About Archie, ok I haven't read the book canon, but I would say... well, I don't know whether you watch House at all (though if you don't, you should!) but at the moment they have the situation where officially House has no medical license, no authority in the hospital and "his" team is actually technically led by his "former" employee, Foreman. But everyone knows House is really the one that is still in control, not least because he has far more experience. And so I envision a similar situation with Archie - Jack wants to be involved, to help out, to help heal people and the Earth, he couldn't not do his best... but having seen the team he put together personally and led die and fall apart he is recoiling from the official leadership. And also, he doesn't want to attract to much attention from Yvonne or in fact, himself. So, Archie is officially in charge, but Jack has an important role. Plus, this scenario would mean more lovely conflict, eg when Jack disagrees with a call of Archie's, and the consequences following those orders, or not, has on other people - especially if put in a situation where one decision could endanger his previous self and the Cardiff team, but the other decision could harm, or even lead to the death of, his current team. Sometimes, Jack knows what happened, so he knows what must happen - but there would definitely be instances where he would push against it, try to find ways around it, and then probably make some situations much worse than they might have been had he been more disciplined.
You know, the more I think about this, the more I really want it to happen. This is exactly everything I want from Jack's character and any future Torchwood. Gah.
And, long comments are love :) My last one exceeded the character limit the first time I tried to post :P
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-02 08:33 pm (UTC)We need to make awesome TV together. For sure. Five years from now, it'll be our names coming up in the opening credits of Doctor Who and similar. What is it that you're studying at uni, out of interest?
I don't watch House, but that is EXACTLY the sort of relationship I was thinking of. Possibly a little bit more equal as the series goes on, as Jack learns to trust Archie's decisions as much as his own (only to have Archie make the wrong decision during a season finale because angst is part of what makes Jack, and because...well, it would be awesome drama).
Gaaaah, this idea is too perfect. <3
I'm debating whether or not it needs more characters. Because I think that Archie is referenced as literally the only member of Torchwood Two, but obviously nobody seems to know much about it anyway, so there might be others behind the scenes. It would be interesting if Jack played around with timelines to the extent that we actually got a sort of prequel to other characters, rather than just the Torchwood 3 team. Or if he seemingly contradicted what he knew to be the future, like making a decision that killed off somebody that he remembered was on the list of the dead at Canary Wharf, i.e. not meant to be dead yet. That would create interesting moral dilemmas. It would totally turn out to be somebody else with the same name, but lordy would it create dilemmas.
I think perhaps they need a medic, but that's it. I'd like to see a Torchwood team that's only three people because that's what it needs, rather than because it's been reduced to that number.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-02 08:57 pm (UTC)OK, we're gonna have to develop this a bit then I think, because it is such win.
On other characters... Its an interesting angle to have such a small team, though I think there need to be a few recurring characters for Jack to feel linked to, responsible for, to care for in some small way. Perhaps only the medic is a formal member, because Archie too knows that Torchwood can destroy lives. Unlike Jack, who is very sociable and instinctively gathers a team, I see a possibilty of Archie having a range of people he sometimes works with when he needs help, but they aren't actually part of a team - for example, he may routinely retcon those he works with, a practice which again, would put Jack into rather a dilemma. He has done that in the past, yet maybe he finds to this extent the practice is horrible, unecessary. But again, he doesn't know whether to let himself care and become close to people again though that is his first instinct. Would the truth protect them or place them even more in harm's way? And so Jack starts letting one or two retain their memories, against Archie's wishes, to a range of consequences.
I mean, overall, I would want to gain both insight into the past and the lives of the Torchwood 3 team, in a similar way to the way Jack himself wants so much to be back with them but knows this is the closest he can allow himself to get to them, while also having Jack continue to have a present life and adventures, not purely (although slightly literally XD) living in the past. And what keeps Jack from brooding all the time is the present - the TW3 team helped him not always angst over the Doctor, and similarly a group of people at TW2 would help Jack live another parallel life.
Also, whether or not it goes anywhere, Jack needs at least one love interest. Because he's Jack. And then he can agonise over Ianto even more. Tis all about the conflict and moral dilemmas.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-02 09:12 pm (UTC)Having recurring characters that aren't part of the team would make this more interesting for me - there could be about ten of them, so that none of them are in every episode. Like Andy and Martha, who can be called upon but aren't official. It would also make the characters a lot more vulnerable, because any of them might be killed without it causing too much of a fuss (an emotional upheaval, sure, but easily replaced). I'd quite like to see Archie as similar to Jack at points, perhaps quite cold-hearted. To the point where he's seen so many team members die that he no longer allows himself to get close to any of them, and is able to replace people easily. That's cold in an entirely different way to Yvonne, because it's been repeatedly stated that she was a 'people person'. I'd like Archie to be somewhat of a hermit, actually. Hermits United. ;D
As for the medic, I'd like a male one - partly because I've grown attached to Owen and Greg (book-canon, sort of), and partly because the dynamics of an all-male team would be interesting. That said, I think it would be interesting if Jack's lead love interest was female, and one of the freelancers. Or, indeed, if he had multiple love interests within the group of freelancers, because that could have a knock-on effect between Torchwood and his private life.
There's an interesting relationship mentioned in the books between a couple who I ~think~ are both members of Torchwood. But Jack is actually having it off with both of them, even though they're due to get married. On their wedding day, they're both distant with each other, get paranoid that the other one knows about their affair with Jack, and commit suicide to 'save face'. It's really tragic, but it's not dived into particularly deeply, and I think it would be a wonderful angle to approach from, because Jack is obviously capable of multiple loving relationships at once. Perhaps not having the two people as a couple, but certainly having more than one love interest would be something new. Because then there's room for growth when they learn about each other. Maybe they're comfortable with Jack not being exclusive - maybe Jack feels he can't be, after what happened with Ianto, maybe he doesn't want to settle down and pin all his hopes on one person again.
It would also be interesting if Archie or the medic is obsessed with the mysterious Doctor and Jack has to fight to stop them charging in every time there's an appearance (because obviously he'd then cross his own timeline). Ooh! D'you remember Malcolm, the Doctor's 'best friend' from Planet of the Dead? Maybe he could be one of Torchwood Two's contacts before joining UNIT. Maybe Jack was the one who told him about the Doctor in the first place...